SESSION IV: POSSIBILITIES

Discussion leaders: Evan Mandery and Suzanne Shanahan

  • Sigal R. Ben-Porath, Cancel Wars (Chapter 5)

  • John Inazu, “Pluralism, Particularity, and Possibility”

PART 1: THE POSSIBILITY OF COMMUNITY LEARNING

Suzanne Shanahan: I want to raise some questions about the importance of dialogue and where it takes us. I worry in this conversation that we have a scope condition problem—that we’re looking in the wrong place. Maybe we looking to universities to fix universities, when we need instead to be looking more broadly at the relationship of universities to a variety of stakeholders, a variety of communities that they exist within. 

I think we want to be more aggressive in understanding why there is a growing antipathy to what our institutions are doing incorporate that skepticism into our thinking of what we’re going to do moving forward. I don’t think we do enough of this. We do not think of institutions like Notre Dame as public goods. And I think we need to pivot to understanding them as responsive to the public and as committed to not just the flourishing of the Notre Dame community, but the flourishing of the region we’re in. And that requires a different way for institutions to engage. I think that’s one of the ways we can get back to this notion of universities as a space of common flourishing and service. Here are two examples.

The first one is from Notre Dame, which has been around for 175 years. It produces a new strategic framework every five years, and this last one was the first time that the school had ever mentioned the city of South Bend. That is just extraordinary. And after this latest plan, the South Bend community imagined there would be collaboration on a range of things, but there was no mechanism for that. There was no mechanism for faculty research to have implications for the city. Sure, we can send students out to do service learning, but how do we have a set of shared goals of what we as Notre Dame and South Bend jointly aspire to? Most universities haven’t cultivated that way of being. 

One of the things that at our institute decided this fall was that we were going to hold 25% of our class spaces for community members. We offer about 25 classes a semester—serving roughly 600 students—so this is a meaningful commitment. Any community member can apply to join our courses. They might sit in on my class on Law and Theology or on Religious Freedom in America. The idea is simple: if we want to cultivate genuine deliberative dialogue, we have to be in conversation with people whose life experiences differ profoundly from our own.

“If we want to cultivate genuine deliberative dialogue, we have to be in conversation with people whose life experiences differ profoundly from our own.”

— Suzanne Shanahan

Developing that capacity requires moral imagination. It means the university’s edges need to fray a bit. Too often, especially in anxious times like these, institutions turn inward—guarding resources, protecting turf, and “defending their toys.” But perhaps what’s needed instead is the opposite impulse: to open the doors and windows, to bring more people to the table.

The second example comes from Duke, where I used to teach. A few years ago, I helped create the Citizenship Lab at Duke, which I directed for about nine years. It brought together 400 Duke students and about 700 refugees—mostly high school students—into a shared civic space. We read the Federalist Papers and Socrates, but the real goal was to identify shared concerns and work together as citizens to address them.

Every Tuesday evening from 5:30 to 8:30, those 700 community members made their way to Duke’s East Campus—often using every available Uber and taxi in Durham, which was a logistical nightmare. But once they arrived, the lab became a living example of what Maya Angelou called “taking responsibility for the space you occupy and the air you consume.” Students and refugees worked side by side on concrete civic projects.

Some of those projects might sound small, but they made real differences. For example, because of this partnership, every high school student in North Carolina now has access to a calculator on standardized exams. That may seem minor, but when 72 percent of the state’s high schoolers lacked calculators—and when you need one for the ACT or SAT—it was transformative.

Another effort focused on refugee students entering public high schools without basic literacy skills. Many were preliterate and had never held a pencil. Yet the state offered no primary literacy instruction in high schools, meaning these students couldn’t even enroll in ESL classes. As a result of the lab’s advocacy, North Carolina now provides primary literacy education in those settings.

A third project tackled public transportation. Refugee families relied entirely on buses, yet Durham’s bus stops were little more than signposts. The students and community members designed and built bus amenities—shelters, benches, and trash cans—so that every stop now offers basic dignity and comfort.

These may look like modest accomplishments, but they embody the deeper lesson: education as shared civic responsibility. The students and community members weren’t just learning about citizenship—they were practicing it.

That’s the frame I want to offer for our discussion. How might we imagine commitments to higher education that extend beyond the boundaries of elite or non-elite institutions? How can we recover a vision of higher learning as something that serves—and draws from—the entire citizenry?

“Service learning isn’t about saving the world—it’s about growing as a person and understanding that your education is not just meant to better you, but to help you think about where you fit in the broader community.”

— Jennifer Frey

Jennifer Frey: I want to say something about the relationship between liberal learning and what now we would call service learning. I made service learning an academic requirement to graduate from the Honors College at the University of Tulsa. This turned out to be very controversial move, and I ended up in a lot of conversations about why I thought service learning was important. And most of the objections were coming from people who really did value traditional liberal learning and who saw service learning as in competition with it or a distraction from it. 

Their worry was that the goal of liberal learning is contemplation. You can save the world once you’ve done contemplating. I don't understand service learning as saving the world. And in fact, I think that's exactly the wrong way to think about it. I think that college students are completely transformed by their encounter with people in need and that it is actually a tremendous blessing to engage in that work. Our service learning was all direct service. It all involved encounter. You couldn’t go somewhere and push paper around. And it was very wide ranging. It was helping people shop in a market where everything was free or it was domestic violence shelters. It was serving food at a homeless shelter – all this different stuff. A lot of it involved going into radically underserved schools and doing afterschool work, tutoring, and that sort of thing. But it was an experiment of direct engagement with students we tracked over eight months.

A lot of students were scared to do this, but it was absolutely transformative for them. And they were able to connect those activities to what they were reading and thinking about in their coursework. There was a really direct connection there. I want to suggest that these are really compatible and not competitive and that it’s not about saving the world at all. It’s about growing as a person and understanding that your education is not just meant to better you, but to help you think about where you fit and the broader community and that that’s actually a very important part of a liberal education. 

Suzanne Shanahan: I wonder if that’s not the essence of what it means to be a citizen.

Abram Van Engen: One of the things that has become especially apparent in the Trump administration challenges to higher education to people who have never really thought about it, especially at private institutions like WashU, is that we are supported by taxpayer dollars. Even an English professor at WashU is supported by taxpayer dollars. I think people have typically thought of themselves as supported by our endowment and student tuition without thinking about the ways that the federal and state governments are giving you tax breaks and other support to do what you do.

All of which to say is, I think it would be a very interesting exercise to have professors at places like WashU frame what they’re doing in terms of public service. If you imagine yourself to be a public servant, how does that change or frame your teaching of Shakespeare, your teaching of poetry, or whatever it might be. I just feel like it might help also jar us loose from the sense that what you’re about is your own prestige and your own reputation, and that you're doing your job best when you’re building your own reputation. 

Adrienne Davis: I want to return to the question about our commitments to our broader communities. This is a species of the question that you're asking us to think about, Suzanne. I love the idea of inviting community members in as students. I'd love to hear more about whether they had to commit to being there the whole time, or could they come in and out? Something that WashU did that I was really happy with was a series of Mellon grants called “The Divided City.” A large portion of those were stood up to invite community partners to co-apply with faculty for grants.

It is a radical rethinking of what counts as knowledge production. And it invites the community in to think about what new knowledge is that’s meaningful to the community. And to your point, Jennifer, students were invited in as well as research assistants. I don’t know that we called it service learning, but the students were having these series of encounters.

PART 2: THE POSSIBILITY OF PLURALISM

This section was principally an interview of John Inazu by Evan Mandery.

Evan Mandery: John, it’s clear in your Learning to Disagree book that you’re trying to cultivate empathy while you’re teaching. And have you come to believe that empathy is something that can be taught to students?

“You can teach empathy under conditions of trust—but you have to build that trust.”

— John Inazu 

John Inazu: I think you can teach empathy under conditions of trust, but you have to build that trust. A few years ago, I was teaching an undergraduate seminar in political philosophy. And with two weeks left in the semester left, I said, “I’ve never done this before. I always stick very carefully to the syllabus. But instead of the last two weeks of readings, we're mixing it up and every single one of you has to come in. I think we have 9 or 10 people in the class. Every one of you has to come in and talk for five minutes about an issue you care passionately about that you would be terrified to say publicly at Wash U. These are undergrads. And then I'm going to spend the next 15 minutes grilling you with every possible counter objection that comes to mind in front of your peers. And you're going to have to answer me.” So, we did this, and I mean, it was one of the most powerful teaching moments I've had. And it was everyone jumped in. There were some weird views and ideas defended. And at the end of class, one student came up to me after the semester and said, “I just want you to know that six of us stuck around and talked for four hours when the class ended saying this is what we thought college was going to be.”

But then one student emailed me and said: “Professor, that was great. You should teach this class again except next time, make the whole class just this.” And that's when I said: “If on day one I had said, here's what we're doing, every one of you would've dropped the class.” The only reason this was possible was because we had spent eleven weeks building conditions of trust. And trust was not just reading raw trust was also learning each other's names and taking some risks about things that were a little less fraught than the things that finally surfaced at week 12. And so, I think good teaching with good students under conditions of trust can teach and cultivate empathy. 

Evan Mandery: I share your commitment to pluralism. I think it's one of the most fundamental things that colleges should teach, and both sides are getting it wrong right now. I have been lucky over my career as a legal historian and journalist to get to interview some great civil libertarians. I wrote a piece about Greg Lukianoff from the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression. I've gotten to know Nadine Strossen over the years, I did a long piece on Ira Glass. Over time I have developed an integrated theory of civil libertarians. So, I'm curious about your journey to civil libertarianism. What you think in your life made it resonate with you, and to the extent you can venture a guess, commonalities you see among like-minded people like me, who don't share some other first premises that you have.

John Inazu: I have a personal and a professional answer to your question. The personal piece, which I write about in Learning to Disagree, is that my grandparents were interned as Japanese Americans. My father was born in the camps. This was obviously a horrible injustice. The architects of the internment were Earl Warren and Franklin Roosevelt. For me, ever since I got to college, I've just been suspicious of power, whoever’s in power, and the importance of civil liberties. I sometimes say when I’m talking to students, civil liberties are for losers. You don’t need them if you’re winning elections because you either get the laws you want or brighten the exceptions that you want. It is when you’ve lost that you absolutely need the protections to be in the dissenting minority.

This nicely and serendipitously connected to my academic research. When I stumbled across the assembly clause, I was clerking at the time, looked down at the text of the First Amendment, noticed the assembly clause, thought: “Here I am, I've gone to law school, practiced law for four years. I have no idea what the assembly clause is.” I did a deep dive into the research and figured out no one else knew either. The Supreme Court hadn't touched it in 40 years. There had not been a book on the right of assembly in 50 years. This is one of the five rights in the First Amendment. So as a soon-to-be graduate student, I thought, “this is the dissertation topic, right?” 

So it was those two pieces together that for me formed my commitment to civil libertarianism. And then the really wonderful thing has been the people who would contact me for support. There was a guy from Occupy at St. Louis who camped up in my office trying to get me to write a brief for him. And then Black Lives Matter, but also pro-life protestors and conservative Christian student groups. And so early on I was just co-laboring with all of these people. All of this reinforced to me that this was not a partisan project. It was a civil libertarian project.

Evan Mandery: You’ve obviously met other brilliant civil libertarians over your life. Do you sense a common pathway for people who get to that kind of deep commitment to pluralism?

John Inazu: I have very mixed feelings about the present moment because there are a lot of pluralist pretenders right now. There are people who are using this moment and this idea of pluralism very instrumentally to try to win a game. So I look for the kindred spirits who demonstrate a commitment to a principled position that holds over time. I mean, the beauty of the chaos of the current political moment and the flip-flopping we're having every few years is people are saying lots of things on the record that they’ll walk back four years later. I am always looking for the people who are saying in 2025 is what they were saying in 2012. 

Evan Mandery: Do you think there’s any commonality in the people who get to that kind of steadfast, lifelong commitment to those first principles?

John Inazu: Well, they probably have experienced the being in the political minority at some point. It’s very hard to get there if you're always winning. David, do you have thoughts on this? 

“A lot of the complexity we’re dealing with is how institutions and systems respond when character fails.”

— David French

David French: I was recently at a gathering of pluralists. And one of the ways I try to define who's genuine and who's not is that I don't believe someone's a genuine pluralist until I see evidence that they have confronted people on their own side of the aisle. If I see zero evidence of that, I start to think it's all instrumental. But these were genuine folks who at great cost have stood up for people's rights with whom they had lots of disagreements. And what was so interesting going around that table, every single person at that table had a story from a very young age confronting the prevailing peer orthodoxy in their community. So going all the way back to when they were middle school or high school, they have a story of the peer group around them or their community saying one thing, and they're like, I don't think that's right. And so I do think there's a kind of contrarian of spirit that is common. And then also that experience of confronting your own side also gives you sympathy for your opponents suddenly because you see what your opponents see. And that can be really eye-opening. 

John Inazu: And related to that is when you actually encounter and receive those other arguments, your answer ends up being a lot of the time, “it’s really complicated.” And that answer costs you friends—friends who are ideologues who do not stay with you very long when you try to complicate the reality of the world.

Mary-Rose Papandrea: For me, distrust of the government is an awareness that any rules that you set up now that would permit the restriction of expression would come back and hit you in the butt later. 

Abram Van Engen: Doesn’t this make the future of pluralism pretty unhopeful? I mean, if it takes a contrarian spirit who is going to go against peers at great personal costs, isn't that always going to be a small number of people?

David French: Even though civil libertarians are a small number, they always have an ally alliance with about 49% of the population. You think “I’m a civil libertarian. Nobody agrees with me.” But in any given dispute, you have a giant number of allies.

FINAL THOUGHTS

John Inazu: As we finish our time together, we’re going to go around and ask everyone to offer top-level takeaway or puzzle you're leaving with today. We'll start with Roosevelt.

Roosevelt Montás: There are internal problems at the university about the priorities of teaching and clarity of mission. There are external problems about its responsibilities to relevant communities. And these internal and external problems seem to be deeply related in some way.

“We are in a crisis. I’m not persuaded that most of my colleagues even think the crisis is legitimate.”

— Adrienne Davis

Adrienne Davis: As I approach the twilight of my career and this heartbreak I have about this, I think deserved loss of trust in universities and whether we, especially the faculty can do some hard work to accept that we are in a crisis and we've got to figure this out if we’re going to survive as a community of scholars, community of teachers, and as something called higher education. And I'm not persuaded that most of my colleagues even think the crisis is legitimate. So I thank you all for being in this space where I think most of us in this room agree there is a crisis and want to try to think that through.

Elisabeth Kincaid: Just building on what you said, I think the challenges seem so overwhelming that it’s a blessing to be with people who care about the challenges and also see the possibility for different faculty doing different things in different areas to address them. So just as there are a lot of different problems, there are a lot of different small solutions.

Evan Mandery: I like doable things. I think the teaching of listening, tolerance, and dialogue across difference is teachable. I think it’s scalable.

Mary-Rose Papandrea: That was exactly what I was going to say. It’s eminently doable. It might be that we need to integrate extracurriculars and academics more.

Chad Wellmon: As much as I’m sympathetic to the challenge of learning how to disagree better, I think that’s only a more proximate concern in relationship to an institution in which education isn’t almost entirely orthogonal to what it’s actually doing or claiming to do. So it’d be great if that were our biggest problem, but universities aren’t really in the business of educating, and this seems like a pedagogical aspiration. 

Sara Hendren: The big light bulb was the disentangling that Roosevelt and Jennifer did between liberal and general education. That was just very clarifying for me in your respective projects. 

Kavin Rowe: For me, the problems that we’re naming seem multilayered and complex, and the universities that we’re talking about seem very different and kind. And when you bring those two things together, then what you wind up with is something like the need for prudential judgment as the thing that will probably help the most in any of our lifetimes.

Jennifer Frey: Over the last three months, I have watched everything that I have tried to do in a higher ed in the way of reform be undone. And so this for me was sort of an existential thing. It's like, well, I can either kind of lick my wounds and go home and protect myself, or I can just keep trying. And I think I just want to suggest that no matter how hard it is and how demoralizing it is and how depressed we can be, that we really just have to keep trying because I think everything’s at stake. I actually think that the university is one of the most important institutions in our lives, and you got to keep hope alive even when all the evidence is against it.

Johann Neem: Yes, to hope. I am leaving less certain that MacIntyre is right that the university should be the place where these rival traditions are hashed out. But he’s right that the form in which they’re hashed out is going to take the form of the epistemology of the university, which means that schools have to choose which one is theirs, because if every issue is existential, ontological, and epistemological, then we have chaos. And so institutions have to have bounded pluralism around a shared understanding what they’re for.

David Decosimo: I think that things are worse than we think. And because of that, I think there’s actually opportunity for things to be transformed in different and in important ways. And I think a part of that is trying to find values and ends that on the one hand, open-ended enough that they can command loyalty across deep difference and different comprehensive doctrines, while also being determined enough that they can actually guide us in a particular direction. The task is to try to find those values.

David French: The conversation brought to mind a quote from the federal judge who reviewed the lawsuits brought against Harvard and MIT by Jewish students after October 7th, and the court ruled against Harvard and for MIT because they found that Harvard’s administration had not responded to legitimate, credible threats against Jewish students. And MIT had responded, but not very well. And the judge says, “The transgressors were after all mostly MIT students whom the school perhaps naively thought had internalized the values of tolerance and respect for others. Even those with whom one might disagree, that a modern liberal university education seeks to instill that.” In other words, the university was counting on its students to be small ‘l’ liberals and they didn’t do it. A lot of this conversation is reinforcing to me the necessity of character formation and that a lot of the complexity of what we’re dealing with and the difficulty of what we're dealing with is how institutions and systems respond when character fails. And that’s a very, very, very difficult challenge.

Suzanne Shanahan: Throughout the day, I have been thinking about MacIntyre’s After Virtue and his line: “Don’t ask what we should do, but what story we’re a part of.” And I think for me, this is recognizing the duality that Roosevelt identified about the internal struggle, but the struggle between universities and publics, and how do we bring those together in thoughtful ways.

Abram Van Engen: I am struck by how much this conversation is about a specific kind of wealthy private research university. When I talk to friends of mine who teach at liberal arts colleges, their lives are not that different than they were before. The problems they have, which are many, are not that different than the problems that they had ten years ago. And so this is a very specific problem to very elite universities that we’re facing right now. I’m still very optimistic about these universities. I still think they’re incredible institutions that do incredible things. And I think on the ground, students still have and can have remarkable transformative experiences. 

John Inazu: Read Evan’s book, Poison Ivy. And then read Chad’s book, After the University. Be more hopeful than Chad, but maybe less hopeful than Abram. You have to act locally and in an institution-specific kind of way. So figure out how to double-down on your own institutional context and move from theoretical discussions to practical solutions.